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Forum:Toggling Images "not allowed" ; Revoke or keep?
Okay, we have a topic thats I've had to put on hold, I'm not a member of staff but I do have to write up the image guidelines when no one is around and purge useless images from the wikia from time to time. The problem Many moons ago we had a huge discussion/argument over toggling images and while toggling is is allowed, during the discussion MF (I apologse for writing "MF", I can't spell the username but theyone of our admins who left) noticed the sole purposes of toggling was for decoration. There were many angry words, and last I heard the person behind the toggling had left. MF ruled that in the best interests of the wikia, toggling SHOULD NOT be allowed for images. It also went against out Image Guidelines, which state images are not to be used for decorational purposes. The other thing was it was during this discussion that the blunder stating manga and anime images do not have a perference. This was my error when I wrote the guidelines, as it was suppose to be written mangas images are suppose to be held only until a anime version appeared. But we had a short time later a note from someone that sometimes a anime image is not as good as the manga image. Thus the correction on the guidelines was never persuded bcause it left the wkia editors to decide for themselves what image was best use and gave us a chance to figure out what image was the best for demostrational purposes. Another flaw with toggling was though was it was rendered voided by the fact we have an "appearance" section on each page where possible. If the ruling by MF on toggling is to go ahead so any form of toggling images can happen, the wikia staff must all or majority of them back a revoke of the rules. If we don't sort this out we get a problem, as I've just noted in the current topic where the toggling was once again in the open until the revoke goes ajhead you can't ACTUALLY use the toggling feature for images even if the editors vote it in because its not been cleared. This is pretty much just red tape, sorry guys, I just like things to be done correctly. That means we have to get this matter sorted. I will stress that the current most major problem is and always will be the matter of "Appearances" sections being on pages. The infobox is just suppose to be a quick reference and until now the reason for there being 1 image was just to help users identify they have the correct character. That means the best image had to be there. I will also note its suppose to update anyway whenever a character does a appearance change, so by now all Straw Hats should have their current look up there. I also note on that thought; We don't have the stages of anyone else's life up there. I don't go to "Shanks" infobox and see a version of Shanks as a boy, an adult and current or whatever. I also note with no perference over anime or manga, the editors are free to use what they want. While that has caused *some* conflicts of interest we've always just discussed the situation and sorted it. I don't know, perhaps we should discuss that sometime? I know we've just had a discussion on RAWs and Scanalations, but not "Anime over manga". I'll leave that for someone else to create a topic on. This isn't really 100% related to revoking this rule though, so can we fix on this for the time being?One-Winged Hawk 16:36, August 8, 2011 (UTC) Discussion Revoking the toggling over ruling; I will note I'm against toggling, but I see it as pretty pointless, but I won't go against the majority of the editors. For a while now I've been mad at the problems it created previously. I'm not anymore, I once threatened to leave if it went ahead, but I'm not a major editor so its just pointless. I'll be happy so long as the editors vote on it correctly, as I said, I just interest myself these days on images, I never became a staff member because that never interested me, otherwise I'd been an admin right from the start in... 2006? I forget when we started. Can everyone just be aware, that there are implications in toggling and problems it creates. The most major problem pointed out by me was most editors only look at one image and the most major problem with toggling is it opens more conflicts of interest up; that means arguments over the best image to be used. That mans, as annoying as it is, we've got to adapt Image guidelines even more to explain which anime, manga, timeskip, etc image gets peference over another. More boring rules and guidelines, when we already seem to struggle to obey them as they stand. -_-' I don't know... I just want teveryone to be aware this toggling feature can create a lot more problems, as that we will see a sudden increase in images. I also have to mention, amongst the other problems we face, discussion on "Appearance" section would have to take place, in order to discuss just WHAT now has to go in there if the infobox isn't just being used to house the most updated version or whatever it is the editors seem to think its for when its just a quick reference. One-Winged Hawk 16:36, August 8, 2011 (UTC) ;Copied from Forum:Pictures of characters after time-skip and before time-skip#Poll valid? You know Angel, I thought about undoing your edits. It is so incredibly disrespectful I can't even put it in words. You butt in out of nowhere and close polls where the majority of the editors discussed and voted on. But I wont undo anything (yet). People shall see what you did there. 16:20, August 8, 2011 (UTC) First, let's provide the discussion for reference: SeaTerror linked these: *Forum:Toggle Feature *Forum:Images on the wiki *Forum:Image Guidelines Are there any others? :Ah, maybe I shouldn't have "undone" your edit, but still I simply moved your post to the discussion, nothing more, beside the code doesn't work with so many text, templates and everything else. ::AH!....those were "old" forums,any what does this mean -"you MUST revoke MF's rule"?..if the community votes for the toggle,it's (technically) revoked:)-- :That's right, this is a poll meant to overwrite that decision, we are aware that currently the switch isn't allowed. If can you link other discussions related to this, it will be appreciated, because I didn't read the whole discussion (sorry but it's huge), but I don't see even a poll... how did you decide that? It's not a decision which goes against the term of use of wikia, so it's simply our decision, we can change it if there is a general consensus. ::Theres more to discuss here on the matter though, and there was a vote of sorts previously anyway. Thats the trouble here Leviathan MF overruled the previous vote anyway. Look, I don't want more arguments but can we just concentrate on toggling alone for the moment, I need to expand on the discussion and get it sort otherwise theres going to be problems to whomever updates the guidelines. ::Please understand the previously overruling cancelled out images used for toggling in all forms (the original idea was w had anime and manga vesions ogf EVERY images on the wikia which is what cause the complete overrule). Thats the single most important thing here, yeah your trying to give allowance for images on the infobox, but the current overruling states no imagesshould be used for toggling. So firstly, we have to get rid of "no toggling images". Then we can reopen the discussion in that poll. ::The problem is this; we have no toggling guidelines right now because its NOT allowed, so even if you let it through, one percific guidelines has to be created to explain how toggling has to be used. Currently I'm left with "No toggling allowed on the wikia at all; infobox toggling is allowed", the second part is conflicting with the first part of "no toggling imags at all". Do you see the problem? As I said, its just red tape, I'm sorry I was without a et acess for a month and a half and I apologise for the troubles I've caused. One-Winged Hawk 16:54, August 8, 2011 (UTC) I will note so many editors just ignore Image Guidelines anyway, so I sometimes wonder why we have the Image Guidelines in the first place. But thats another discussion entirely. One-Winged Hawk 17:12, August 8, 2011 (UTC) Let's clarify some things... don't talk about "staff" because the "staff" are the supervisors of Wikia, this is a wiki, hosted by Wikia, and there are "admins" not staff members. About the the problems of which version use, we were probably going to open another forum about the "default picture to display", so the discussion wasn't simply over with just that. The "toggling is a decoration", well isn't it obvious? Beside we are already using the "toggle code" in many templates, and in a different form in tables. But as you said this is a discussion over "toggling images". Then what's with "MF ruled this and that"?? An admin can't just "rule" a guideline... guidelines are discussed as a community. Besides I don't understand why are you so worried, to "overrule" MF's decision we have to open a poll, haven't we? So isn't it basically what are we doing? And there is no need to worry about guidelines conflicts, in the forums we decide the guidelines... what do you think the correct process to vote on this is? Because you can't say "you can't vote on this because it's against the guidelines" otherwise it's a paradox where you will never be able to change the guidelines. :No, thats not what I'm trying to say. Levi, can you just stop being a pain for a moment, I'm currently in a fix as it is because the topic polls results got archieved and I'm just trying to sort out a problem here and work out what needs to be done in regards to a MINOR issue that for crying out loud can be sorted in a week if need be. :And by staff I mean this wikias admins, beaucrats whatever. Really you should know what I mean by now, have I been away that long? But yes I guess theres a form of paradox forming here. I dont' know what much to say, but I will note some of the problems toggling created weren't brought up in that discussion topic. ANYWAY I'm in a state of a mess here because no one really updated IG while I was gone to add something and with new polls to sort out I'm sort of trying to put together a puzzle thats not fitting because I've got an archieved topic putting a clog in the works. :I wouldn't have minded if the thing I'm sorting out with IG (I'm not updating it right now I note because as I began reading all the new poll out comes that have to be adressed I've been called out for a family meal in the last ten minutes or so). Trying to sort the grerat conflict is now causing me a headache. I hate returning to unfinish problems, and I guess I'm a little peeved. But do understand, someone has to write this all out Levi, and if no one does when I get round to it I'm the one left to do it. Writing that page out to begin with was guesswork; trying to make sure it ties up is another. :Oh and **** I forgot to open another discussion! I just remembered, this was something I was adressing before I lost net access for a month. Oh crud hold another thought here. I got another thing to do before I go out. O_O 17:30, August 8, 2011 (UTC) I still see no reason at all for a toggle switch. The gallery exists for a reason. SeaTerror 17:51, August 9, 2011 (UTC) :And the gallery will still exist for that reason... if we allow a switch, we are simply move a picture from the gallery to the infobox. If you want to use only the gallery then we should remove the picture from there too, and leave only the infos. If you don't like the switch is another story. Ah, Angel and me were discuss this topic on our talk pages too, so if you want check them out. : : : :i think we should use switches, but only for the straw hats and other characters who changed over the two year time skip, because we need to show the general appearance of the characters in the infoboxs, and right now we have two general appearancs: before and after the time skip. the appearance section doesn't have any images, so it's pointless to say that we have it and that's why we don't need the switchs. the gallery section usually shows the character appearance in a certain arc, so it makes more sense to to put the general looks in the infobox, than in a place that usually shows a certain look. :since the vote of making a swich ended yesterday a it was chosen to make a switch, i think that decsion is now official, and anyone who objects it will have to deal with the fact the the majority won, and we now have decided to make a switch. Strawhat1 14:54, August 13, 2011 (UTC) : :nothing happened in the discussion for 4 days now, so i think we should just end it now. Strawhat1 14:59, August 13, 2011 (UTC) ::No one wants to talk sadly, which means whoever updates the IG is now lumbered with fixing the problems left behind. ::I so do get annoyed when we don't talk, not talking is not a solution to a problem, its just an ignorance... One-Winged Hawk 07:35, August 14, 2011 (UTC) @Strawhat1: the fact this forum is unedited for some days it doesn't mean that the discussion is over. I'll say again my pinion on this, the poll is valid for two reasons: * Forum and poll are the only ways to discuss the guidelines, so when the community reach an agreement about a "wiki policy", that policy will be official. (There are some issues over how much or after how much time you can challenge a guideline, but the "toggling" guideline was decided a year ago (?) so there shouldn't be any problem with that) * For what I understood by Angel summary ("The wiki chronicles" XD), the guideline in question was decided single-way by Mugiwara Franky, an admin now no active anymore, and although I understand his reason and I don't blame him or any other user for anything (rather he did a HUGE work, so I thank him), MF's "rule" over toggling is void to begin with... a bureaucrat/admin cannot impose a guideline or a policy to the community, that's why this is a wiki, if it was a normal site it would be a different story. I'll post my discussion with Angel on the "toggling issue" she told me a summary over the decision over the toggling was made. Angel's posts: Leviathan_89's posts (mine): If you need something about One Piece check my profile, I wrote there everything I have. Feel free to ask. Although I understand the issue of old polls and decisions getting forgotten and the guidelines left out-dated, for that you should ask help to the current admins, but I still don't understand what's wrong with the poll we made. Because, you have basically said that "because there is a guideline stating something, than you can't make a poll to change the guideline on that something". But if we go by this logic, how can we change a guideline? It's like made a law "this law cannot be changed", that's what bugging me (us). P.S.: I didn't make the poll for a whim, I never intended to run the poll to begin with, simply the discussion went that way and I made the samples templates like I was asked. Well thank you for the "wiki chronicles" : )... now I don't have to read the whole discussion. Now I'm not sure, if I get the wholes story right, but I'll try to respond you: * What we are doing - the purpose of the ongoing forum is to decide whatever or not a toggle feature can be used in the infobox, (it first bring up as copying the switch from narutopedia), after this forum we should yet have to decide which is the "default version" to be shown. For example, my personal opinion, I voted for the anime/manga because I think we should emphasize the original appearance (Oda's art) more, and the infobox image should be representative of the character, so I like the idea of having a representative image from the anime and one from the manga, since it's Oda's art. Whatever switch will choose, we will simply move an image (or add if not present) from the gallery to the infobox. It's not that the gallery will become suddenly useless, rather I think we can lighten it since in some cases it's overloaded. Moreover some characters don't have their manga or anime version. * What was done - I have the most respect for the HUGE work done here by you, MF and other editors, I'm still a relative newbie here, but if MF's "rule" of not using toggling (for images) was placed on his own, and not with a vote or a general consensus, then (I'm sorry to say this) it's void to begin with... and bureaucrat/admin cannot impose a guideline or a policy to the community, that's why this is a wiki, if it was a normal site it would be a different story. I understand his reasons to do that because, for what you said, the discussion was going out of hand (I think it's an exaggeration to use a switch for every image, it's not what we were discussing though), but still he cannot impose anything, read this. * Guidelines - I still don't get what you think is the correct way to do a vote like this one. As I said saying "you cannot vote on this because there is already a rule for that" it's a contradiction. Since I'm here, we have always done this: Bring up the problem > discuss possible solution > poll > guideline, it's the same process to change a guideline. * Copyright - the copyright is, and yet isn't, a problem, since we are basically suing all the image on fair use, and although we have tons of images, we don't provide means to read a whole chapter for example, so there shouldn't be any complains from wikia or shueisha, since wikia doesn't care as long we are a big wiki who brings new visitors (wikia earns through ads) and to shuueisha we are basically a big advertisment to OP. Just think that in Italy the fair use isn't valid, but there are still no complain (on the Italian wiki) and moreover I can be "annoyed" (and punished, sigh) for copyright infringement because I upload copyrighted image here, even though here the fair use is valid. Anyway I have started adding the right license to every images and I have uploaded every license templates, I placed a little guide in the guidelines if you don't know which license use. * Which version choose - aside the last forum about raw/scan images, I don't know a general guidelines to choose an image version (manga/anime), we are currently use the "better looking" principle and decide case by case if there are problems (see "what links here" of ). We can decide a policy, but we can still go like this, if someone brings up the problem we will discuss it. }} It's sad that only Angel cares to keep the guidelines updated... we should get the admins work on them more. I'll try to help updating the guidelines, up until now I have only worked on the licensing/uploading section. :I can't keep up with any other update anymore, as soon as new chapters come out the wikia gets updated... I used to be able to keep up but some weeks I'm two days late reading the manga. I do care more then the guidelines, but I was in the middle of looking at them when I lost net connection and well... Its left me with a big load of work, on top of it, theres been some forum voting going on and no one bothered updating any guidelines... In the past wheneve this happened I was the person who updated what needed to be done. :I have no idea whats going to happen tomorrow. Last weekend my new home was broken into and a dog was left with a broken leg that two days ago was removed. On top of that, I have another wikia to look after and my balancing between the two is crap. 10 weeks ago as well, I was living in a house under different circumstances. I do apologise, I just struggle to keep up with this wikia these days... I regret that I can't do more, because I USED to be a big contributor to the wikia in its early beginnings. If I could do more I would LOVE to, but theres just not enough time in my day to do more right now. I did note I'll try and get back into things in the future, but thats obivously not good enough for you Levi. One-Winged Hawk 11:50, August 17, 2011 (UTC)